Commons:Categories for discussion/2023/02/Category:Antenna towers and masts

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Category:Antenna towers and masts[edit]

Rename Category:Antenna towers and masts to Category:Antenna masts to match parents Antennas and Masts in accordance with Hierarchic Universality Principle, as well as eliminate the Simplicity Principle violation. Josh (talk) 02:17, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Oppose
  • Simply renaming a category tree without thoroughly re-sorting the content (hundreds of regional subcategories and thousands of objects) into two parallel categorization trees would only cause confusion.
  • Even if we divide these objects into two category trees, "antenna towers" and "antenna masts", it would still be appropriate to leave them a common category at each level ("antenna towers and masts"). So for each country, for each region, instead of one category, we would have three different categories. It would be necessary to create subcategories, not to rename existing categories.
  • If it was once decided that "antenna towers" and "antenna masts" were merged to one category tree (or created as one category tree), it probably had some rational, factual and practical reasons, and seems fully consensual and convenient in the last 10 years.
  • en:wiki also covers both with common articles and categories, e.g. en:Radio masts and towers and en:Category:Radio masts and towers, consensually since 2005. Unnecessary renaming of Commons category tree would damage the consistency of inter-project links. As the article says, "the terms "mast" and "tower" are often used interchangeably". Although there is some difference between the two concepts, it is not sharp and unambiguous enough to allow to clearly divide all objects between them, and there is a large overlap between them. The current titles and categorization reflects this fact in the most appropriate way possible.
  • For now, "Antenna towers and masts" are categorized under both, "towers" as well as "masts", which means that they can be found easily in the category tree regardless of whether we interpret or call a particular object more like a tower or more like a mast. If there was a simple renaming, these objects could disappear from the category "towers", although many of them are understood as towers or/and are so called.
  • The current categorization fully meets Hierarchic principle (All categories should be contained in at least one other category, there should be no cycles). The fact that any category falls under several superordinate topics paralelly does not contradict this principle. In addition, merging very close and intertwining concepts into one common category tree meets the Universality principle.
  • If there is no real need and demand to split the tree into "Antenna masts" and "Antenna towers", such a forced self-serving division would be a violation of Simplicity Principle, which would cause massive unnecessary duplication of categorization, and a subsequent mess. So far, there is no demand, no need and no tendency to separate the antenna towers from the antenna masts to such subcategories "by type", at Commons as well at Wikipedia. The proposer's reasons are purely formalistic, not practical or factual. --ŠJů (talk) 03:27, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ŠJů: I was not suggesting a split. Josh (talk) 08:10, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But you are right that the current category is not violating the Hierarchic Principle, that was my mistake in the OP. It is violating the Universality Principle, which my proposal would correct. Josh (talk) 08:13, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't seem to me that you have taken note of my arguments and responded to them. --ŠJů (talk) 08:19, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your arguments are talking about a split, which is irrelevant to my original proposal. I will address those relevant to my new proposal below. Josh (talk) 18:51, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further investigation reveals a greater issue here, so I have struck the original, simple proposed rename in favor of the following:

Rationale:

Addressing points brought up earlier that are possibly relevant to this revised proposal:

  • Would re-naming require re-sorting? No. Currently, these contents are all antenna towers and presumably live together okay now, so this can continue under the correct name Antenna towers. Those that can be further refined as antenna masts can be sorted as users see fit, but they cause no issue where they are.
  • Should antenna towers and antenna masts be parallel? No. Masts is a sub of Towers, so per the Universality Principle , antenna masts should be a sub of antenna towers.
  • Were antenna masts and towers merged for a good reason in the past? Possibly. Renaming Antenna towers and masts to simply Antenna towers would not change this. It is normal to further diffuse main categories into subs so creating Antenna masts in the future to further this would not violate that.
  • Doesn't enwiki combines these topics? Sure. Again, the rename of the parent category would not automatically decouple masts and towers, so it would be consistent with enwiki for what its worth. We routinely diffuse categories to a greater level than enwiki, so this point seems moot however.
  • Doesn't current categorization already comply with Hierarchic Principle ? Strictly speaking maybe, but only if all contents of Antenna towers and masts are masts, as it is currently under Masts which is under Towers. If there are contents that are antenna towers but not antenna masts, then it means we have non-masts under Masts and that would be a violation of the Hierarchic Principle .
  • Is there a practical or factual need to split the categories? Possibly, but renaming to Antenna towers and categorizing it correctly under Towers does not split the category at all. Diffusion of towers identified as masts in the future under Antenna masts is optional and should only be done if there is a real purpose.
  • Would this proposal make it harder to access from both Towers and Masts? No. Antenna towers will be under Towers so that connection is obvious. Antenna masts can be a redirect to Antenna towers until such time as it is made its own category when it will be under Antenna towers.

Outline of existing categorization:

Outline of proposed categorization (simplified to key categories):

Josh (talk) 21:00, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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