Commons:Village pump/Technical

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This page is used for technical questions relating to the tools, gadgets, or other technical issues about Commons; it is distinguished from the main Village pump, which handles community-wide discussion of all kinds. The page may also be used to advertise significant discussions taking place elsewhere, such as on the talk page of a Commons policy. Recent sections with no replies for 30 days and sections tagged with {{Section resolved|1=--~~~~}} may be archived; for old discussions, see the archives; recent archives: /Archive/2024/03 /Archive/2024/04.

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I'm trying to add formatting parameters to Template:Userpage (e.g. for changing the background color), but having some issues. I introduced them to Template:Userpage/layout, but I gather that I need to pass them through language variants like Template:Userpage/en to get them to be usable. But when I try to add something like

|border={{{border|}}}
|background={{{background|}}}
|extra-style={{{extra-style|}}}
|file={{{file|}}}

to the English translation, it shows in previews that undefined values are interpreted as blanks rather than just ignored. How do I get around this? Best, {{u|Sdkb}}talk 19:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

{{subst:bump}} {{u|Sdkb}}talk 07:27, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
{{subst:bump}} Sdkbtalk 16:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it looks similar to a problem i had before. i think i was trying to call another template in a template, but the parameters somehow couldnt be properly passed. i just gave up at the end. i cant remember the details.
when a discussion has no reply for this long, chances are no one knows or is interested.
i used to go directly to en:wp:vpt even for tech problems on commons, if i feel that chances of getting a good answer is higher there. obviously i cant do that anymore due to bullshit, though. RZuo (talk) 19:28, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
take a look at https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Sandbox&diff=prev&oldid=858887180 .
basically when Template:Userpage/en calls Template:Userpage/layout, if you include those new parameters, this whole thing "{{{file|}}}" is passed to Template:Userpage/layout.
i guess the answer is, you cant pass a parameter from page A to template:B and ask template:B to pass it again to template:C. i'm not sure if my analysis is correct. RZuo (talk) 11:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cat-a-lot does not work for categories[edit]

There seems to be a technical problem with Help:Gadget-Cat-a-lot: when I click on Preferences, click on "Allow categorising pages (including categories) that are not files", then select one or more subcategories and try to move/copy/delete them to/from another category (like I always do), nothing happens but an endless "Editing page 1 of X". Moving files is no problem. Can this be fixed? JopkeB (talk) 11:05, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not the only one having troubles, see Commons:Village pump#Cat-a-lot as well. JopkeB (talk) 13:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same for me: moving categories does not work, moving files works. --Reinhard Müller (talk) 14:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I confirm that it is not working. Theklan (talk) 09:36, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can also confirm that it's not working for categories, although it will sometimes say that the category was moved.Smasongarrison (talk) 00:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: If there is specific categories where problem can be replicated then please list them. (ie. fixing requires example cases) --Zache (talk) 15:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to copy a lot of subcategories in Category:Energy by type of energy to Category:Energy by topic‎ (all except for the 'by' categories). JopkeB (talk) 16:20, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was broken by a change to the HTML structure of the category pages, see phab:T355636#9553616. I hope it will be fixed by another change to the HTML structure, but if not, an interface admin should update the method getMarkedLabels() to account for the change. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 14:02, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same problem for me. I have posted this on MediaWiki talk:Gadget-Cat-a-lot.js but the only replies are people saying "Same problem for me". So nobody is actually looking after this? Cnbrb (talk) 23:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For me moving categories was never possible with cat a lot. Always moved one by one.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 05:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Help:Gadget-Cat-a-lot#Preferences. RZuo (talk) 06:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Question Is there any chance that we get an indication of:

  • What is the priority to solve this problem?
  • Whether someone is working on the solution of this problem?
  • How long it might take before it is solved?

--JopkeB (talk) 07:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How to exclude redirects in search results?[edit]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=intitle:%22add+name+later%22 . i tried -insource, filesize, linksto, hastemplate. nothing works.--RZuo (talk) 09:42, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a discussion on the topic that might be helpful. —CalendulaAsteraceae (talkcontribs) 21:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background not showing up in SVG previews[edit]

For some reason the background is not showing up correctly in SVG files I recently uploaded, e.g. File:Finnish dialect location map - southwestern dialects.svg (and 6 others). They're supposed to have the water (light blue) as the background, and it shows up correctly when I open the SVG file in my browser, but not in any of the generated previews, where it is either transparent or solid black. I think it is an issue in the SVG file, but I'm not sure what it is. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 15:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Surjection:
The background is created with
<rect class="sea background" width="960" height="1558" rx="" ry=""/>
Which is not supplying a number for rx or ry. I removed the attributes and the sea appears.
The class information is also conflicting. The "sea" wants to be stroked, but the "background" does not.
Glrx (talk) 01:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tech News: 2024-11[edit]

MediaWiki message delivery 23:02, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TimedText select list loss[edit]

There is no Montenegrin language (crnogorski cnr) in select language list of TimedText pages. how to fix this? ITZQing (talk) 11:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

you need to write on phab:. you can make one for your language like phab:T354201. RZuo (talk) 12:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lossless crop assistance[edit]

File:MartzAction41A-1-.PNG has specific cropping instructions that I have never seen before with suggestion for lossless tools. I would like assistance in cropping this into 4:3 (630px wide) and/or 3:2 (560px wide) proportions using such a tool.-TonyTheTiger (talk) 11:16, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That file is a png, so cropping with pretty much any tool is going to be lossless. I assume that is why the template limits its recommendations for lossless tools with the note "if cropping a JPEG...". —RP88 (talk) 11:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have extracted with Photo. What do I need to do regarding the metadata to follow the instructions?-TonyTheTiger (talk) 13:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you've already done it. Since the "copy this file metadata" link is just an edit link for the source file, I am pretty sure the template just wants to make sure you copy the contents of the {{Information}} from the source file to the new file. One quibble I would have is that the request was to "Crop to show the woman with the ball" but your cropped file shows both women. I think the goal of the requestor is to have a image of just Jennifer Martz that can be used at d:Q6178597 where it is not ambiguous as to which of the two women in the original image is Jennifer Martz. —RP88 (talk) 13:38, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User:RP88, Notice that my crop removed a front facing teammate of Martz'. I think that would be the more important secondary subject to worry about. I think considerations of the backward facing person are less relevant.-TonyTheTiger (talk) 00:04, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Images from Commons not being shown on Facebook[edit]

Hello. About two weeks ago Facebook seemed to stop showing images from links to Commons files. I do not know if that problem has been discussed here, but it still persists. For those of us who regularly post links in Facebook groups it is a great inconvenience, also given that all the existing links stopped showing images. Facebook obviously thinks that there is something wrong with the setup of Wikimedia Commons, but it is impossible for a common user as I to ask them what is wrong. Does anybody at Wikimedia Commons know what has changed? Cheers Rsteen (talk) 03:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This was phab:T359413 and has since been fixed. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 21:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tech News: 2024-12[edit]

MediaWiki message delivery 17:37, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Logging usage of ajax quickdelete.[edit]

When using the speedy request in auditor, it generates a report in a log file, I was wondering how I could make a similar log for ajax quick delete CSD requests. Alachuckthebuck (talk) 20:15, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"According to Exif data"[edit]

I have just discovered the According to Exif data and in the talk page, the user @Arnd had an interesting idea: to use a bot which will automatically add the EXIF data in the template. Would this be possible? Thanks, Erick Soares3 (talk) 20:12, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am running my bot from time to time to add missing dates to the template. To find the files i perform a search like insource:/According to Exif data *\}\}/. Would be nice to have a maintenance category for it. Regards, --Arnd 🇺🇦 (talk) 08:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image appears but doesn't appear although appear[edit]

Tarapaca Campaign.svg

In es:Guerra del Pacífico the image File:Tarapaca Campaign.svg doesn't appear but in es:Desembarco y combate de Pisagua the image appears. I guess it is some SVG irregularity in the SVG-Format of the image: the last thumbs in its common-history also doesn't appear. Does any one know the reason?. --Juan Villalobos (talk) 11:57, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sense of which shows is flipped? Guerra del Pacífico shows the image, but Desembarco y combate de Pisagua does not?
view-source:https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desembarco_y_combate_de_Pisagua has
src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Tarapaca_Campaign.svg/300px-Tarapaca_Campaign.svg.png"
which should link to https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Tarapaca_Campaign.svg/300px-Tarapaca_Campaign.svg.png
That image is good. ?action=purge of the es.Wiki page did not fix it.
Purging on the Commons file page kills the displayed main image (making it match the history thumbs).
Now the image does not display on Guerra del Pacifico.
Loading the PNG directly shows a server error.
At least everything is consistently broken.
Glrx (talk) 05:51, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And now the PNG link displays and both es.Wiki articles display the image. Glrx (talk) 05:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
es:Guerra del Pacífico still doesn't display the image. --Juan Villalobos (talk) 07:33, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It don't even see it on File:Tarapaca Campaign.svg. Clicking on some of the resolutions gives "Error
Our servers are currently under maintenance or experiencing a technical problem. Please try again in a few minutes.
See the error message at the bottom of this page for more information." Enhancing999 (talk) 09:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At the bottom, among others "Error: 429, Too Many Requests at Mon, 25 Mar 2024". Enhancing999 (talk) 09:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does not show for me on File page or es:Guerra.
File page fail:
Request URL: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tarapaca_Campaign.svg
Request Method: GET
Status Code: 304 Not Modified

Age: 0
Cache-Control: private, s-maxage=0, max-age=0, must-revalidate
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 15:09:26 GMT
Expires: Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 GMT
Nel: { "report_to": "wm_nel", "max_age": 604800, "failure_fraction": 0.05, "success_fraction": 0.0}
Report-To: { "group": "wm_nel", "max_age": 604800, "endpoints": [{ "url": "https://intake-logging.wikimedia.org/v1/events?stream=w3c.reportingapi.network_error&schema_uri=/w3c/reportingapi/network_error/1.0.0" }] }
Server: ATS/9.1.4
Server-Timing: cache;desc="pass", host;desc="cp1100"
Set-Cookie: NetworkProbeLimit=0.001;Path=/;Secure;Max-Age=3600
Strict-Transport-Security: max-age=106384710; includeSubDomains; preload
Vary: Accept-Encoding,Cookie,Authorization
X-Cache: cp1100 miss, cp1100 pass
X-Cache-Status: pass
On reload, File page succeeds
Request URL: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tarapaca_Campaign.svg
Request Method: GET
Status Code: 304 Not Modified
Remote Address: 208.80.154.224:443
Referrer Policy: origin-when-cross-origin

Accept-Ch:
Age: 0
Cache-Control: private, s-maxage=0, max-age=0, must-revalidate
Content-Encoding: gzip
Content-Language: en
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 15:16:03 GMT
Expires: Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 GMT
Last-Modified: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 15:03:33 GMT
Nel: { "report_to": "wm_nel", "max_age": 604800, "failure_fraction": 0.05, "success_fraction": 0.0}
Report-To: { "group": "wm_nel", "max_age": 604800, "endpoints": [{ "url": "https://intake-logging.wikimedia.org/v1/events?stream=w3c.reportingapi.network_error&schema_uri=/w3c/reportingapi/network_error/1.0.0" }] }
Server: mw1435.eqiad.wmnet
Server-Timing: cache;desc="pass", host;desc="cp4041"
Set-Cookie: NetworkProbeLimit=0.001;Path=/;Secure;Max-Age=3600
Strict-Transport-Security: max-age=106384710; includeSubDomains; preload
Vary: Accept-Encoding,Cookie,Authorization
X-Cache: cp4041 miss, cp4041 pass
X-Cache-Status: pass
Server ATS/9.1.4 fails but server mw1435.eqiad.wmnet succeeds.
Glrx (talk) 15:26, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I don't get any server error or even an error message. Simply the image doesn't appear in es:Guerra del Pacífico but it appears in other articles. --Juan Villalobos (talk) 16:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's only visible when clicking on some of the links on the file description page at "Other resolutions: 162 × 240 pixels | 323 × 480 pixels | 518 × 768 pixels | 690 × 1,024 pixels | 1,380 × 2,048 pixels | 875 × 1,298 pixels."
In the meantime, on File:Tarapaca Campaign.svg it's back, but not on the "other resolutions". I wonder how many requests it takes to trigger "Too Many Requests". Enhancing999 (talk) 16:32, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just made several different size requests, and all returned good images. All but one were served by Thumbor/7.3.2.
If I load a failing image
Request URL: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Tarapaca_Campaign.svg/81px-Tarapaca_Campaign.svg.png?20181213201810
Request Method: GET
Status Code: 429 Too Many Requests
Remote Address: 198.35.26.112:443
Referrer Policy: origin-when-cross-origin

Access-Control-Allow-Origin: *
Access-Control-Expose-Headers: Age, Date, Content-Length, Content-Range, X-Content-Duration, X-Cache
Content-Length: 1820
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 17:29:25 GMT
Nel: { "report_to": "wm_nel", "max_age": 604800, "failure_fraction": 0.05, "success_fraction": 0.0}
Report-To: { "group": "wm_nel", "max_age": 604800, "endpoints": [{ "url": "https://intake-logging.wikimedia.org/v1/events?stream=w3c.reportingapi.network_error&schema_uri=/w3c/reportingapi/network_error/1.0.0" }] }
Server: Varnish
Server-Timing: cache;desc="int-front", host;desc="cp4049"
Strict-Transport-Security: max-age=106384710; includeSubDomains; preload
Timing-Allow-Origin: *
X-Cache: cp4049 int
X-Cache-Status: int-front
This response looks to be a cached error message from Varnish. Refreshing does not update. Using another browser does not update.
Glrx (talk) 17:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, problem is still there. Can you resolve it?. --Juan Villalobos (talk) 08:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

W3C reports 2 errors. Namespace http://www.openswatchbook.org/uri/2009/osb not on whitelist. Used in linearGradient6213 and linearGradient4061. Both are single-stop gradients. Both gradients are unused. Nuked.
File has more than usual Inkscape verbiage. There are a lot of style="...;line-height=0%;...". There are empty g elements.
Still does not display.
Glrx (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interwikilinks to german wikipedia with no corresponding german article[edit]

I have found about 2000 pages here in commons with a interwikilink to german wikipedia, but the page does not exist. Examples:

Now the question is: What to do? Ignore? Fix?
I have a Bot in deWP and 7 years experience with this bot, but no idea with the bot policy here. --Wurgl (talk) 17:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the pages have links added manually they could and should be cleaned up by a bot. But at Category:Adoxaceae in Naturschutzgebiet "St. Arnualer Wiesen" there seems to be a bug presumable in the infobox resulting in the incorrect link. GPSLeo (talk) 19:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GPSLeo: Category:Adoxaceae in Naturschutzgebiet "St. Arnualer Wiesen" is getting its missing article link [[de:Adoxaceae in Naturschutzgebiet "St. Arnualer Wiesen"]] added by the [[de:{{PAGENAME}}]] code in {{Districts of Saarbrücken}} that is called by the {{Districts of Saarbrücken Navi}} template on the category page. Author appears to be AnRo0002. Maybe they can offer some insight. —RP88 (talk) 20:27, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I said: About 2000 affected pages for deWP, these 5 are just random examples. (I did not check any other language) --Wurgl (talk) 21:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but {{Districts of Saarbrücken Navi}} is used on 1586 categories and is the source for 2 of the 5 categories that you chose at random. It might be the cause of a big fraction of the 2000 affected pages that you identified. Commons bot policy is fairly permissive. You can read the policy at Commons:Bots and post at Commons:Bots/Requests if you want permission to run your bot on Commons. It might take a while to get approval, the Bot request board moves slowly. —RP88 (talk) 22:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for pointing it out. If you are interested and patient enough to run your bot through this issue on commons, this would be great. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tech News: 2024-13[edit]

MediaWiki message delivery 18:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bot for archiving closed cfd requests[edit]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributions&target=SteinsplitterBot&namespace=4&wpfilters%5B%5D=associated&tagfilter=&start=&end=2023-12-07&limit=100

SteinsplitterBot (talk · contribs) used to take care of this, but it last archived cfd on 6 dec 2023, so we need a new bot for this task. RZuo (talk) 22:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@RZuo I just fixed SteinsplitterBot. It looks like when they did the migration to the new jobs system they forgot to migrate this one. But it should be working now, and will run daily in the future. Feel free to ping me if it stops, or if you notice any other issues with SteinsplitterBot (I have full access to the tool.) —‍Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mdaniels5757: If you have access to SteinsplitterBot, do you know why it stopped updating Commons:Database reports/Getty Images a few months back? Is there any assistance I could provide to you towards getting this SteinsplitterBot job fixed or restarted? —RP88 (talk) 23:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking into this. —‍Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 22:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@RP88 Fixed (it was a combination of the same issue and a broken dependency). —‍Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 00:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mdaniels5757: Thanks very much! I appreciate you taking the time to investigate and fix the issue. —RP88 (talk) 02:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

rulers[edit]

anyone have a handy userscript or gadget to add rulers around the main image on file namespace pages? of particular interest to me would be percent rulers, for aiding the addition of COM:SDC relative position within image (P2677) statements. Arlo James Barnes 00:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Table of contents[edit]

Can someone figure out why {{CategoryTOC}} doesn't work on this page: Category:EC-Audiovisual_Center_review_needed, and fix it. Thank you! // sikander { talk } 🦖 17:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sikander: As far as I can tell, the horizontal Category TOC on that page is working fine. I tried several different browsers as well as both logged in and logged out. I suspect the issue is at your end, perhaps try emptying your browser cache. —RP88 (talk) 18:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It looks for subcategories, but you want files: try Template:FileCategoryTOC. Enhancing999 (talk) 18:04, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, no. It's just that they are all sorted under "0-9". Enhancing999 (talk) 18:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sort through Template:LicenseReview/layout-reviewme is by pageid. Enhancing999 (talk) 18:15, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, seeing Enhancing999's replies led me to think what you might have meant by "doesn't work". In my reply I was saying that I saw {{CategoryTOC}} correctly displaying and working exactly as intended (but apparently not how you probably expected). As Enhancing999 implied, the template {{EC-Audiovisual Center}} invokes {{LicenseReview}}, which (while in the needs review state) uses Template:LicenseReview/layout-reviewme, which sets [[Category:EC-Audiovisual Center review needed|< PAGEID >]]. So the files in this particular category are sorted by their page id, like all other license review needed categories. —RP88 (talk) 18:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@RP88 and Enhancing999: Ah, sorry for creating some confusion here. My intention is to navigate the contents of Category:EC-Audiovisual_Center_review_needed category by file name and thought {{CategoryTOC}} would work. {{FileCategoryTOC}} is also not doing what I thought it would. Any other suggestions? Thank you. // sikander { talk } 🦖 19:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... depending on what exactly you want to do, you might be able to use Special:Search with incategory:"EC-Audiovisual Center review needed" and then adjust the advanced search fields. This won't get you an alphabetically ordered list, but it would let you search the contents of the category. —RP88 (talk) 20:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Template:LRCategoryTOC has some logic for this type of category. Enhancing999 (talk) 21:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tech News: 2024-14[edit]

MediaWiki message delivery 03:33, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

why does the time scale end in the 49th century BC?[edit]

compare for example Romania in the 35th century BC to Romania in the 54th century BC. I couldn'd find out the lack. anro (talk) 21:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On an immediate level, that's because the {{Subject by century}} template (which is used to implement templates like {{Centuries BC in Romania}}) only runs from the 50th century BC to the 25th century CE. It will not display categories which lie outside those bounds.
Realistically, the use of year-based categories for time periods well outside recorded history like "49th century BC" may not be appropriate, as the margin of error on dates that far back is often wider than a century. (Nor am I convinced that it's correct to describe subjects like the Turdaș culture as being "in Romania" over five thousand years before any such country existed.) Omphalographer (talk) 00:02, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mobile versions of user talk pages are useless[edit]

Though I'm not active on Commons, I got bored and used my mobile device to look through some deletion requests, then at at a user's talk page. I knew that user had several deletion requests, but saw only one on their talk page. The talk page's history showed that old sections were archived, which was fine, but the page seemed to have no links to those archives.

I couldn't find the 'Read as wiki page' (or whatever it is) option, so out of desperation, I switched to the desktop version of the page. I was shocked at what I found there: not only the archive links, but also a notice that the user had been blocked indefinitely. (Before that, I hadn't seen any reference to a block.)

In summary, the mobile versions of user talk pages (and perhaps talk pages in general) are so crippled as to be useless. Brianjd (talk) 08:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]