Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Diliff

Files uploaded by Diliff (talk · contribs)[edit]

Continued presence here presents a clear and present danger to our reusers of lawsuit threats by Diliff and their proxies Pixsy, Fossick OU trading as Fossick Pictures, Owerk LTD, Owrek Ltd, Tom Corser, et al.

list of files

— 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 15:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Delete Regrettably. There is conclusive evidence that Diliff has been using Commons to copyleft troll via proxies (i.e. demand payment via legal threats rather than allowing good faith reusers to correct errors in attribution). For the sake of our reusers, we need to remove these images from the project. If Diliff announces that he will no longer copyleft troll, we will of course restore them. Nosferattus (talk) 15:48, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Firstly, I am no longer active on Commons and Wikipedia and it seems that, from reading your comments on my talk page, that you made no effort to inform me of the reason for your line of questioning or your perspective. I don't consider a content creator who operates on a commercial basis but in parallel, offers their images on a 'free' licence that contains specific stipulations about re-use, to be a "copyleft troll". Seems like your lack of an initial explanation on my talk page and then leaping to conclusions about my motivation is in bad faith. Diliff (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Then a simple main question here: Did you send bills for license violations to nonprofit reusers without prior request to comply with the license requirements? If you did so do you agree to not to do so in the future? GPSLeo (talk) 06:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  The questions you ask are not the right questions to understand what has been happening here. Firstly, no I didn't send bills myself, I engaged the services of a company who manages the investigation of infringements on my behalf. And secondly, no, I don't agree to that because I have every right to defend copyright and license violations. You have to understand that my images, while they may be hosted on Wikimedia Commons, licensing and enforcement is not managed by Wikimedia Commons and it is not their business as they don't have copyright ownership. Further, Wikimedia Commons has no right to strongarm content creators to try to prevent them from parallel-license their images with both Creative Commons licenses and other licenses of their choice. Diliff (talk) 12:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Then your files should not be hosted on this project. Gaining money from nonprofit reusers how made a mistake when using a file without giving them a chance to correct their mistake is against the idea of Wikimedia Commons and the Wikimedia Movement Charter. Using Wikimedia Commons for commercial purposes is without approval is also against the Terms of Use. GPSLeo (talk) 13:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Why so hasty? We are still discussing at Commons:Village pump#Guidance re possible copyleft trolling and are far from a consensus. – Aristeas (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are facing a fundamental problem with this deletion request: it is based more on personal criticisms of the user than on an objective evaluation of the content itself. Each image has been rigorously examined to verify whether it meets our criteria for relevance and proper licensing. If these conditions are satisfied, there is no legitimate reason for their removal. Proceeding with this action would not only unnecessarily harm the project but also seem more an attempt to punish the user than a measure based on valid concerns about the images. It is imperative that we maintain our focus on the integrity of the content that is published, something I have personally ensured by making all my work available in the public domain to avoid future legal complications Wilfredor (talk) 16:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We should give the author 30 days to respond to this accusation. If we do not get any response we shuld Delete. GPSLeo (talk) 16:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with User:GPSLeo not to be hasty and to give at least 30 days to somehow resolve this. However, if Diliff intends to treat even minor, accidental online violations of his copyright and license as legal matters where he demands payment and gives no chance to "cure" them violation, then no matter how good these photos are, we should not be hosting them.

It is one thing to go after a large corporation (especially a media corporation that should no better) when they violate a copyright, especially commercial use in a print medium where "cure" is impossible, repeat violations after prior warning, or refusal to remedy an online credit. It is another thing entirely to go after a small non-profit or "some guy with a blog" because they got an online credit wrong (e.g. attributing to "Wikimedia Commons" rather than the correct photographer) and are completely willing to fix the credit or remove the image. If the latter is an ongoing pattern (and it appears to be), we cannot continue to host these images. Contrary to what User:Wilfredor says, it does not matter how good these images are. If a certain minor harm to the project is the only way to avoid an ongoing danger to the general public, we need to simply accept that harm to the project. - Jmabel ! talk 17:05, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this to be the first wave of deletions of all contributions by professional photographers? In the past, we told photographers that they could license their photographs also differently. The main purpose of publication on Commons having been to make them available for Wikipedia. Enhancing999 (talk) 17:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I use a photo from Commons under the terms of Creative Commons and then the photographer claims I didn’t pay them, then I do t see how this could even work. Once an original image is uploaded to Commons, the copyright reverts to Wikimedia with the CC terms going into effect. How could Dillif even sue someone? - Chris.sherlock2 (talk) 08:30, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chris.sherlock2: Once an original image is uploaded to Commons, the copyright reverts to Wikimedia with the CC terms going into effect. No, it doesn't. The copyright still rests with the photographer or image designer. What makes you think the copyright reverts to Wikimedia? — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 08:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jeff G. I stand corrected. - Chris.sherlock2 (talk) 21:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike regular deletion requests because of Copyright issues, this time we have images that are in use all over the projects connected with Wikipedia, Commons and Wikidata, and are also correctly licensed there. Deletion is only necessary as the precaution to deflect harm from future re-users - this harm must be averted, either by deletion or by the user stopping the legal threats.
The correct step is not to delete first (which means these featured (!) photos will be summarily delinked from thousands of articles without much notice), but to first replace all these photos with "actually free-to-use" photos. Also yes, GPSLeo and Aristeas are right with the argument for an extended limit. Let's not be hasty, instead wait for the esteemed but inactive photographer to respond. But yes, failing a convincing response, and after replacing these works, we should ultimately Delete. --Enyavar (talk) 17:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- To set the record straight here, my photos are "free-to-use" as long as the licensing terms are respected. It has long been the case that I have offered and allowed commercial use of my images -by request- without any CC-BY-SA licensing restrictions, and by agreement for a fee. This, I have always believed, was still in keeping with the aims of Wikimedia. If Wikimedia wanted to ensure that all hosted images were truly "free" without any use restrictions whatsoever, it would not have settled on the licenses it has chosen. Diliff (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As GPSLeo says, the author should be given time to respond to the allegations. If nothing is heard, however, I strongly believe we have a responsibility to protect end users from situations like this and the images should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Huntster (talk • contribs)
Doesn't deleting all these images expose anyone that used them to copyleft trolling, since the original image source and Creative Commons licence will no longer be available? If so, is there a safer way to address this issue e.g., disabling image downloads? --Julesvernex2 (talk) 18:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps all the images should be replaced with blank placeholders so that the file pages remain. Nosferattus (talk) 20:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - Blank placeholders do not help at all with this problem. Users need the original image to be present on the file page in order to prove that the image they have used/are using was/is available there under the given CC license; when the file page shows a placeholder, this is no longer possible, so everybody who has ever used such an image would be much more exposed to copyleft trolling and other accusations than now. @Julesvernex2: You are right, this is a big problem and an important argument against deleting the files. Yes, there are many other possible ways to deal with the problem, see the original discussion. – 06:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aristeas (talk • contribs) 09:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as premature. The VP thread is ongoing. — Rhododendrites ^talk | 19:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep All the files are properly licensed and in scope. The damage to Wikimedia projects, if we decide to delete, would be disproportionate. Correctly attributed external usages would link to non-existent source pages, too. If we allow us to produce such a mess, I really wonder where are we going to end up someday, sorry. --A.Savin 21:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep. We don't delete duly uploaded and licensed files because of the later behavior of a former contributor. Edited to add that the precedent was set with User:Livioandronico2013, who was blocked for incivility and inveterate socking. So not deleting images because of behavior is the rule, although I just found out a few minutes ago that there was an exception: Commons:Deletion requests/Files found with marco verch. I have no idea how good marco verch's images were, but Diliff's are great, and I don't see how the spread of freely-licensed photographs that merely require attribution would be helped by deleting many of the all-time best images on this site. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ikan Kekek: Just FYI: Marco Verch’s photos are good, but much simpler than Diliff’s ones. Most of them were quite (IMHO) boring stock photographs which are easily replaceable. And what is more important, the evidence of “questionable” behaviour was much stronger. I am still not convinced that Diliff knows or has realized the full extent of the bad things which happen in his name; but the evidence was strong that Mr Verch must have know what was going on. So the fact that we have deleted Verch’s photos does in no way imply that we should or must delete Diliff’s photos, too. – Aristeas (talk) 07:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware that many low-level and barely-commercial users have regrettably been caught up and I have historically tried to intervene and/or significantly reduce the fee being sought for retrospective licensing. I hope you can also see my inherent dilemma, however. Firstly, there are huge number of legitimate large commercial users who have used my photography illegally and I feel that morally speaking, they should be accountable for acting illegally to deprive me of income. Secondly, I don't have the resources to pursue these individually and need to rely on external resources. Thirdly, it is difficult to identify the extent of the misuse or potential loss to myself simply from the location of the image on the internet, which therefore makes it difficult to focus resources only on the most egregious misusers. Fourthly, the resources expended on tracking the images down and contacting the owners is not negligible, even if -potentially- the damage to my photography income is negligible. For the process to be viable, it seems reasonable to at least be able to recover the costs incurred. Fifth, as you would likely be aware, what is sought in damages and what is settled on are often very different things. All of the above may not persuade you that I am within my moral rights to do this, and it may also not persuade you that doing so is in keeping with Wikimedia Commons licensing (I firmly believe it is), but I do want to make it clear that I am sympathetic to those who have been inadvertently caught up in this due to accidental misuse, and that this is not, as Nosferattus implies, the actions of a heartless copyleft troll. Diliff (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just want to ask you to clarify one bit here: there are huge number of legitimate large commercial users who have used my photography illegally and I feel that morally speaking, they should be accountable for acting illegally to deprive me of income - since the images are CC licensed, how is failing to properly attribute depriving you of income? — Rhododendrites ^talk | 00:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have always parallel-licensed my images. They can be used with restrictions (CC licensing and correct attribution etc) for free, or (often by request or negotiation) they can be licensed without those restrictions by commercial users for a fee. Therefore when someone uses the image commercially and doesn't attribute correctly, they are depriving me of the licensing fee for unrestricted use. Given the Creative Commons licenses don't prohibit this and Wikimedia Commons has never discouraged dual-licensing, I don't feel I've done anything wrong here. There are moral arguments for and against of course, but that's a separate issue to what is being discussed. Diliff (talk) 04:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose where the criticism is coming in is kind of based in this idea (Therefore when someone uses the image commercially and doesn't attribute correctly, they are depriving me of the licensing fee for unrestricted use). That's well and good for Apple or Conde Nast, but for most commercial uses (e.g. Bob's Travel Blog, which is technically commercial but really just a hobby), they're not depriving you of a licensing fee -- they just didn't made a mistake when using the CC version. If an image had a fee, they would've just used a different image because that's not a realistic cost for the vast majority of small businesses. For a lot of people getting by paycheck to paycheck, even a reduced fee could be devastating. You and I are not in the same league in terms of photography, but I know that I see my work used all the time -- sometimes it's by popular publications/companies, but most often it's by the huge number of people who rely on WikiCommons because they can't afford things like licensing fees. What people are objecting to at VP isn't getting the fee that Apple would've paid if they did things properly -- it's the extracting a fee from someone who never would've used it if they knew a fee was involved, who likely just made a fixable mistake, and who would rather just shut down their business. The dilemma, as I framed it at VP, is that there's no suitable middleground between spending all your time chasing people down and hiring a firm that will act unethically. I think that latter, however, is deeply uncomfortable for a lot of us. The solution to "the Pixsy problem" proposed by Cory Doctorow is just to update licenses to CC4, which builds in a 30 day window to fix attribution. Maybe if you did that, it would rein in Pixsy's ability to go after smalltimers? — Rhododendrites ^talk | 13:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep Per others. See also Commons:Deletion requests/Files by Larry Philpot - very similar case, has been resulted as "kept" Юрий Д.К 07:07, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(already voted ‘keep’ above) This could be the prelude to a new era of Commons inquisition. Imagine some greedy lawyer sends in your name an invoice to somebody who has used one of your photos without 100% perfect attribution. (This and similar things have happened, at least here in Germany. The attribution is often not perfect, and there are corrupt lawyers.) Imagine that the upset ‘somebody’ may complain here on Commons about this issue. Then other Commons users will urge you to proof that you did not authorize that lawyer. But it is very difficult to proof that you did not do something (that’s a general problem of epistemology), and so the other users may not be satisfied by your assurance that you are innocent and do not have authorized that lawyer. So all your files would be deleted … Or imagine you are ill and just not able to respond to the inquiry in time. Then all your files would be deleted … Or imagine that corrupt lawyer sends the invoice in the name of the heirs of one of our deceased contributors. The heirs may not be present at all on Commons and not easily reachable, so nobody will defend the photos of our deceased contributor and the photos will be deleted. That would be a shame. Therefore we should not open this can of worms; deleting Diliff’s images could be the beginning of the end of Commons. – Aristeas (talk) 07:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm fully agree that closing this DR as "deleted" would be beginning of the end of Commons Юрий Д.К 07:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - If we call Apocalyptse Now? here, let's take the other route: If word gets around in the media that Commons is the premier platform to commit Copyleft Trolling without getting restrictions or blowback from the community, and that you need to lawyer up every time you take a photo from Commons, THEN THIS is just as easily the end of Commons. Even if just 10% of our photos turn out untouchable four reuse, the public takeaway is "Commons is a Paywall platform".
    Let's first wait and see what Diliff's reaction to all of this is. As far as I see it, this affair is going on for less than a week by now. There is plenty of time to respond. Also, we're NOT dealing with the hypotheticals that Aristeas describes (most avid contributors are available for comments more easily and/or would publicly refute to work with copyleft troll firms; any claims on "inherited CC photos" would be ludicrous; and finally, the photos may get undeleted upon request) while Nosferattus says there is strong evidence that the lawyer IS acting in Diliff's name and interest and not a rogue. (And sure, I'll be happy to learn that is not the case.) --Enyavar (talk) 08:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't approve of the behavior described in the linked thread, but is there any evidence anyone was harassed for using his photos with attribution? Commons photos are supposed to be used with attribution unless they are public domain. I don't support bullying, but I also don't support denying attribution to photos provided by volunteers as Copyleft files. Either linking them to Commons where they are attributed or downloading them and including the name or username of the photographer in the attribution is required under the terms of the Copyleft license. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Here is the page that Diliff uses as the basis for the alleged actions. So what must a honest re-user do? First, place a link to the full URL next to the image. Second, also place the licence text that Diliff prescribes there, with both his name and the license. He gives a "suggested" attribution, but it seems he went after everyone who violated either of the two required terms on this special page.
    
    Still, I want to learn about his side. If he can present evidence that he didn't pursue each case to the full amount he demanded, and only went after big companies who should have known better because they have the people to scrutinize details like his license page - then I would be okay with the whole thing. But hounding people for innocent first-time mistakes which they are willing to fix, and collecting their money? That idea leaves me in a sour mood. --Enyavar (talk) 19:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Diliff, thank you for the comments you have provided so far. Regarding the point Enyavar makes above, can you clarify if you or any of the agents acting on your behalf have ever demanded payment from users that have used the suggested attribution text ("Photo by DAVID ILIFF. License: CC BY-SA 3.0") verbatim i.e., without a link or the full text of the license you require elsewhere in your terms? Julesvernex2 (talk) 13:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I agree that this DR is a bit premature, and there are other solutions that deleting these. I would support 1. Blocking Diliff unless he provides evidence that this inacceptable behaviour stopped. 2. Add a big red warning on each file description page informing reusers of the potential issues. Yann (talk) 10:40, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Yann: Everyone reading this subpage should now be aware of what Diliff has done. — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 11:24, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's perhaps useful to treat those two proposals separately, as: #1 is specific to Diliff's case; #2 should be part of a broader policy to be reused in future cases of copyleft trolling to ensure they are dealt with swiftly and consistently. Julesvernex2 (talk) 11:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent proposal – simple, effective, fair. I would be happy to help with adding the warnings, if necessary. And yes, we can treat the two parts separately. Best, – Aristeas (talk) 11:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about a big red warning on every non-public domain photo? It's bad that Copyleft photos are routinely stolen. I've seen quite a few COM:DR nominations in which photographers have requested deletion of photos because they are frustrated by repeated reuse of them without attribution. Such deletion requests are not granted, but I think we should sympathize with the photographers thus victimized. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would work, since it grabs the viewer's attention. --SHB2000 (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The one thing I have not seen in this discussion is anyone questioning whether this actually broke any policies. I still have my doubts over whether David Iliff still knows any of this is going on, given the murky attribution of the copyright claims and the fact that all they can provide is a digital signature with a now-defunct company. But let's put that to one side for a moment and imagine that Mr Iliff did sign this agreement with Pixsy/Fossick. He gave permission for his photos to be reused under specific conditions - with specific attribution that conforms with all Commons licensing policies. If someone reuses his photos with that attribution (which need be no more than 'By David Iliff. License: CC BY-SA 3.0'), there is no problem. Was there, at the time Mr Iliff uploaded his photographs, any Commons policy against attempting to use a third-party agency to enforce against misuse of attribution requirements? If there was not such a policy - and as far as I can tell there still is not now - then what we are doing here is finding something we don't like and making up policy on the hoof to deal with it, which doesn't seem at all fair.

I think what this points at is a larger problem by which authors have to either accept that their work will be frequently used under conditions completely violating the Creative Commons license with which they shared it, or they can seek to enforce it but only through the medium of very questionable companies that demand arbitrary fees against those who have improperly reused them. I don't know how to solve that problem. But deleting many hundreds of photos that, if they are attributed correctly, can be used freely and in accordance with all Commons requirements - especially when the author is not here to defend himself and explain his choices, and has not been regularly active beyond tiny and very sporadic edits to Wikipedia articles for many years - is categorically not the solution. If this deletion request passes it would hugely impoverish the project by removing a large amount of high-quality Creative Commons licensed content. It would also send a message that Commons can make up new policies at random and delete many years of work by trusted users if they do not conform retroactively to those policies.

I think Yann/Aristeas's proposal of adding a template to inform future reusers of these images of the importance of conforming with the license agreement is fair and reasonable.Cmao20 (talk) 15:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete It has been noted that it has been quite a while since this user uploaded anything new at Commons and he has not edited Wikipedia for 6 months. His Talk page there has inquiries about lawsuits and demands for payment from the various entities, including those listed at the top of this discussion, going back at least a year. Most of his Commons image descriptions include directions to interested persons to post a note on his Wikipedia Talk page with any questions about licensing. Many have done so, including those sued and dunned purportedly on behalf of Diliff, but the user has never replied. I doubt that he will respond here in light of his inactivity. At best, his images have been hijacked by extortionists without his participation, which the lawyers call misfeasance. At worst, he is an active participant in a scam to earn money from CC images, which would be malfeasance if true. As devastating as it might be to remove so many high-quality images, and regardless of his involvement or lack thereof in the scams, how can we condone the actions of the companies seeking fees from those who used the images in good faith, relying on the CC copyright provisions under which they were published on Commons? Geoff ^{Who, me?} 23:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He was a user in very good standing for many years and has FPs dating back to 2006, I think there is no realistic way in which you can assume he joined Commons to participate in a copyleft trolling scam. As for ‘those who used the images in good faith, relying on the CC copyright provisions’, no one who complied with the Creative Commons license provisions has been contacted by Pixsy. Only people who did not properly attribute the images, or attribute them at all. If the images are attributed according to the correct license then there is no problem using them.

To be quite frank, and I mean this as a statement of fact rather than as a form of blackmail, if these images are deleted I will retire from Commons. I don’t like what Pixsy is doing and their scare-tactic method of doing business any more than anyone else here, but to delete these images would set a precedent that Commons simply does not care about anyone’s work, and that the community can unilaterally decide to delete stuff on a whim in order to protect those who have used the images improperly and illegally. I don’t see why anyone who wanted to retain at least some rights over their images would ever contribute to a project like that. Cmao20 (talk) 23:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I was approached by Fossick a couple of years ago asking to license my images. I a) asked them for a copy of the actual contract and terms they would propose to use, and b) emailed David Iliff to ask what was up with Fossick. I got no response from either. What prevents us from advising people who've gotten demands from Fossick and come to Commons that they should simply correct the licensing to the correct CC-by-SA format, adding a notice about that to all of Diliff's images? Acroterion (talk) 23:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Reply: I'm just a troubled as Cmao20 and everyone else who expressed concern at the potential to lose so many excellent (many of which have been featured) images. Acroterion's idea sounds like a good one to address the issue, if such a note could be added to all the image descriptions fairly easily. It's clear that directions in the descriptions to contact a user on his Talk page, who is rarely present, about use issues are insufficient. Looking back again at the notes from users on Diliff's Talk page over on Wikipedia, I see that many, but not all, mentioned that they failed to provide attribution and hadn't been aware until Pixsy or one of the others contacted them with a fee demand. I note that all or most of the images are licensed under both Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported and GNU Free Documentation Licence, Version 1.2 or any later version. I noted that at least one user reported about a year ago that a court action had been commenced against them by Fossick. The insidious nature of copyleft schemes is that the cost of hiring a lawyer to advise on copyright (and to tell the Pixyss and Fossicks of the world to "pound sand") is prohibitive to most small organizations and part of the extortion scheme. Anything we can do to protect the creators' rights and the ability of the users to use the images as provided by the licence is good. Geoff ^{Who, me?} 00:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd want advice from someone actually familiar with the relevant law. who could advise if the "cure" I'm talking about is actually legally useful before we start offering advice to people, but it's worth asking. And we need to steer as clear as we can from direct legal advice per WMF policy, so the WMF will need to have a say. Acroterion (talk) 00:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies if I didn't respond to you at the time. I don't actually recall seeing your email but there have been times where the account hasn't been actively monitored. I am surprised that you didn't get a response from Fossick but perhaps there was a bit of suspicion in both directions there. I'm not a lawyer either, but I don't believe the proposed suggestion to correct the licensing and ignore the threat is good advice, as it does nothing to prevent the argument of retrospective damages which is generally what is being sought in the first place. Diliff (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had not considered the retrospective damages issue. For my part, I've found that it pays to be suspicious of someone who contacts me out of left field. My response to Fossick was not negative, I told them I'd want to check with you, and I absolutely wanted to see what their terms were before further consideration. I write contracts for a living, so that's important. I would not want somebody to go after de minimis or naive use, and I wanted to see how one might reconcile previous release under CC with enforcement of the CC license in that context. Acroterion (talk) 01:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The worst that should happen here is forced watermarking a-la Commons:Deletion requests/Files by Larry Philpot. Deleting the entire set is pure grudge-bearing. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:26, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Forced watermarking would be a pity, because it would spoil great photos. If people couldn't follow a big red warning that could be added to all Copyleft images, isn't that on them? -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose to damage photos, adding a warning message for reusers would be a good solution. Юрий Д.К 13:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support this idea: I see this for the first time. That looks like a good, workable idea, which leaves the wonderful images intact, keeps them on the same site here, but adds a text that warns off re-users. Yes, it spoils the images, but doesn't damage them. --Enyavar (talk) 19:47, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"it spoils the images, but doesn't damage them"? How do you mean that? --A.Savin 20:37, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the examples: The image content itself remains unaltered (i.e. undamaged). All that gets done is adding a footnote right below the image:

Photo by DAVID ILIFF. License: CC BY-SA 3.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

Hardcoding such an addition into the image spoils it for many use-cases (that was what I meant), but it also alerts the re-users to check the terms of the image. They either accept the image as it is, or they get creative, remove the tagline and work the attribution into their publication in another way. The attribution can remain unobtrusive - white background and small but clearly legible font. If we want to follow the example of Larry Philpot to the letter we might also add another line:

David Iliff sued users of his work for minor attribution errors, keep this attribution intact.

which leaves nothing unclear to the re-user. The second line can maybe left out this time, depending how minor the actual attribution violations have really been. At the moment, we have no clue how many and how severe the cases of attribution violations were, but Iliff allegedly sued private (!) website owners who made honest mistakes, like taking multiple images and just crediting "CC Wikimedia Commons" for all of them, instead of mentioning him personally below his image. Sure, these re-users were doing things wrong, but "you-are-my-legal-adversary-fork-over-cash-500" wrong? --Enyavar (talk) 09:51, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I want to be clear I am not necessarily in support of forced watermarking, but it was done before and is clearly preferable to deletion if something needs to be done. No opinion on whether something needs to be done. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I 100% oppose this. There is no need for watermarking in any way. The idea is preposterous. - Chris.sherlock2 (talk) 21:26, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How would a watermark help, in any case? All it does is make the image very unattractive for any practical use. Diliff (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dillif, I don’t have a huge issue with you charging for infringement, but clarifying what you are doing would be great. - Chris.sherlock2 (talk) 05:46, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I'm not persuaded that there's actually a problem that requires deletion. It might be worth adding information to the description page of Diliff's images that he's rather litigious about the attribution. I think a broader issue is that many people are sloppy about attributing Creative Commons-licensed images because they don't take a "free" license seriously. (I note in passing that the journal of the Swiss Railways Society often reuses Commons images and is meticulous about crediting the author in each case). Mackensen (talk) 11:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Completely agree. I'm sorry for the people who have received unpleasant communications from this rather nasty company and I think we should protect them if possible, but that doesn't change the fact that if they are attributed properly, no one will have any issue with using these images. Cmao20 (talk) 14:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And that (sloppiness/carelessness about correct attribution adherence) is the entire reason why I have been frustrated, and have pursued external help to protect against misuse of my images. I absolutely see valid arguments on both sides of this debate, but I do think it should be made clear that this would be a non-issue if people treated copyright ownership more seriously and were more diligent with adherence to licensing terms. Diliff (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Deletion would be a dreadful response. Those reusers currently validly providing attribution via a link to Commons/Wikipedia would no longer be compliant with the licence. Please do not disregard the interests of these reusers. Thincat (talk) 13:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If we can come up with a template to add to these images pages warning future reusers of the importance of attributing these images properly, I will happily add it to all pictures this user has ever uploaded. Cmao20 (talk) 14:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent idea. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That should be added to all our CC-by licensed images. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I favour deletion. Things can be put back if necessary, but we should not take the risk. Deb (talk) 15:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that avoids risk. I read that even a temporary licence infringement before CC4 put the reuser in breach thereafter. The licence will "terminate automatically upon any breach".[1] Thincat (talk) 15:26, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What risk? There is no risk as long as the images are correctly attributed. This logic if followed to its extreme will eventually mean that Commons can only host Public Domain images because it is asking authors to give up all rights over their images and all hope of ensuring that Creative Commons licensing is actually followed. Cmao20 (talk) 17:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep per Commons:Deletion policy. There is absolutely no "I don't like how copyright infringements are being handled" heading under Commons policy to support deletion. Deletion is and must be based not on a vote on ethics, but on breach of some Commons rule. And there is none.

David Iliff was for many years a prolific supporter of Commons, and one of our few reliable sources of professional-quality images. These he uploaded in significant numbers, and even now – nearly seven years after he stopped significant uploads – he is still in the top 10 of Featured Picture contributors. So far as I know, all of his images were uploaded years ago in good faith, are correctly licensed and appropriately tagged, and they always have been. Although I don't know why he stopped contributing, I suspect that he simply got fed up with people repeatedly breaching the CC licence conditions, and accidentally or otherwise omitting the required attribution. That happens to all uploaders of reasonably decent images, and because of his professional-quality pictures he will have seen it more than most.

It's not relevant to this discussion whether he has some years after uploading placed his images with a third party to deal with copyright infringements. If he has not, the fault is with the company, not with him or his images. If he has placed them, he is perfectly entitled to do so, whether we agree with his approach or not. No-one has suggested that CC licensed re-users are being unlawfully approached. He is in breach of no rule of law, CC licence term, nor Commons policy.

We should bear in mind that Commons is supposed to be a permanent repository of freely-licensed images and media, and we shouldn't under any circumstances start deleting properly-uploaded and licensed images on the basis of out-of process moral outrage directed at the photographer. If we do that, Commons ceases to be a reputable repository, and all professional-quality contributors run the risk of losing their contributions simply because they enforced the very licence that Commons has approved. If we don't want lawful enforcement to happen, we should change policy so that we don't allow CC uploads rather than pretending that the licence incorporates some sort of enforceable but unwritten moral element.

Deletion of these images would harm not only Wikimedia and Wikipedia users in many languages, but also all those external users who have the opportunity to use these wonderful images under the CC licence conditions. And that is what Commons is here for.

If third party enforcement is considered undesirable by the Commons community, I'd support a new warning tag to be applied to these and similar images to make it absolutely clear to re-users the legal consequences of breaching the stated licence. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if we want to delete some correctly licensed images merely for ethical reasons, then I'd say let's start with war criminals. --A.Savin 19:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. That would open up a massive can of worms – if we are going to do that, shall we delete the files depicting transphobes, too? --SHB2000 (talk) 01:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I sincerely hope we'll never going to delete anything due to depiction of someone or something... except maybe very few special cases such as child porn. --A.Savin 02:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, except when it's required by Virginia and US federal law, there shouldn't be a need to delete photos of such kind. SHB2000 (talk) 02:26, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MichaelMaggs, A.Savin, and SHB2000: This isn't about enforcing morality, it's about protecting our good faith reusers from being extorted for huge amounts of money even when they are more than willing to correct attribution mistakes. (And even if you don't care about our reusers, the prevalence of this practice does not help the reputation of Creative Commons licenses or Wikimedia Commons. A media archive that no one uses is not a very successful project.) Nosferattus (talk) 02:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the bread you make is stale, you don't stop making the bread altogether – instead, you work to fix the bread. Likewise, if our reusers who have been extorted for huge amounts of money, you don't delete the files altogether, you try to ensure that our reusers understand what needs to be done to ensure such abhorrent copyright trolling never happens again. --SHB2000 (talk) 02:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is it extortion though? All Dillif asked for was attribution. - Chris.sherlock2 (talk) 05:48, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Commons may be the only source that shows an image was uploaded under a CC (or other) license. Consequently, I want the file to be kept so someone who is accused of a copyright violation can easily see the information. If we learn that an uploader is behaving like a copyright troll, then we can flag the uploads with a black box warning that users should be especially careful about licensing requirements. That should be enough warning to future users; it does not require taking down the image. In the past, we have also added the required licensing text to the image itself. Deleting the image is too big a step. Glrx (talk) 20:37, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep initially my gut reaction was that this was very wrong, but really the only issue is that the people who use the photos weren't providing attribution. It's not much to ask for them follow the only criteria for reuse, so I'm not in favour of deletion. - Chris.sherlock2 (talk) 21:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I have similar sentiments as Chris. --SHB2000 (talk) 01:06, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I don't see how any Commons policies have been violated. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This doesn't seem like copyright trolling to me? He just seems to be particularly interested in enforcing the terms of his license, which is perfectly within his rights as the creator. I think for small creators he could probably benefit from not swinging so hard out of the gate (ie ask them to correct it before legal threats), but he didn't break any rules. PARAKANYAA (talk) 06:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep We currently have no guidance or positions on how users may enforce compliance with Commons licensing. I encourage anyone to propose a policy. Our licensing has always insisted on attribution and I am grateful that this user is one of fewer than 10 of all the hundreds of thousands of uploaders who has explored an enforcement option. I am not sure how we should manage enforcement but we encourage people to try new things, and this discussion is overdue. Bluerasberry (talk) 13:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Having read Diliff's explanations - and I will point out that those on the original village pump discussion who were so sure, contrary to all evidence of this user's years of good-faith contributions, that this was a scam/extortion that they were very insistent the author would almost certainly never reply to this discussion, have been proven wrong - I am more convinced than ever that this discussion needs to be closed. I still don't like Pixsy's business model. It would be better to ask for the attribution to be fixed first before demanding payment. But then again, I don't know how viable their business would be in that case, or what % of likely violations would be successfully enforced. Ultimately Commons needs to decide whether it is more interested in protecting the rights of content creators or protecting people who misuse images without proper attribution. I don't see how we can hope to attract high-quality photographers if we basically insist they give up all rights over their content and all hope of enforcing that it is properly attributed. Besides, the license conditions (one short sentence plus a link to a URL) are hardly onerous. Deleting these images would take Commons backwards, make it worse and less useful as a media archive, and make it a project that is honestly much less worth taking part in. Cmao20 (talk) 13:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The images are in scope and in many cases in use. No policy based reason for deletion has been advanced. Our lesson from this case should be that we need to explain better to re-users (including those who take images directly from Wikipedia, where no attribution or image-licence is displayed to the reader) what are their obigations. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:59, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Diliff

Files uploaded by Diliff (talk · contribs)[edit]

Discussion[edit]

Navigation menu

Search